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Holistic Growth for eCommerce Platforms

The fourteenth episode in the fourth series of the eCommerce Growth Show will bring you the most fundamental tricks about “holistic growth” and the key starting points for getting into a business on the eCommerce site. In this episode of the eCommerce Growth Show, Segmentify is honoured to host Chris Nawrocki, leading the “Heuer” agency for the last three years with his partner.

Chris is a true eCommerce enthusiast, a growth consultant, and a marketing professional. So, if you feel interested in seeing what our episode can offer to you, please have a seat, and make yourself comfortable!

Valuable Learnings from the Podcast

In this episode, Chris shared his experience about the shifts that we are experiencing regarding the industry dynamics, consumer habits, and the needs of the enterprises these days. If you want to understand the concept of holistic growth and the tips behind these current conditions, you are exactly where you need to be. Here are some of Chris Nawrocki’s highlights that you can digest over this episode of eCommerce Growth Show:

  • There are no linear solutions or silver bullets that will serve all brands at all times. Solutions should be highly business-centric and flexible to any changes. 
  • “One size fits all” is not a useful approach in current business conditions.
  • Strategies that make businesses clearly define what they want to achieve and how they are going to be able to achieve it through marketing and other operations is a need at the beginning of all processes.
  • The traditional marketing channels -and strategies- are not enough for creating a new solution these days. The strategy that will bring maximum efficiency and conversion will be a blended strategy that mixes up the existing strategies in an innovative way.
  • Researching and understanding the current market conditions, competition, and trends is a key factor. For anyone who wants to start selling a product in an industry, comprehensive homework needs to be done before starting to sell it.
  • Businesses need to care about understanding their customers and building brand narratives with them directly. If there’s a silver bullet, that should be understanding your customers along with your market share. 

Creating Business-Centric Strategies by Using Personalisation Technologies

Today, many eCommerce businesses are suffering from the low conversion rates and stagnated growth they have experienced in the current conditions of the market. The reason behind this is: consumers are highly unexpected, unpredictable, and everchanging. Their habits are difficult to interpret and are also highly volatile depending on the conditions of the market. Since the industry is highly dynamic, for your business to be successful, you need to come outside of the traditional boxes and try to understand your market share with tailor-made strategies for your business. 

Every consumer involved in a market share is a unique individual, and each of them may have unique ways to capture their attention. To develop that business-centric understanding and interpret the big picture, you need to go deeper into every customer. At this point, personalisation in eCommerce plays a major role. Using the most intelligent personalisation engine, Segmentify serves you solutions that will make you understand your customers in the best way possible. 

With Segmentify’s personalisation-focused solutions, you can reach your unique customer segment by finding the most accurate to capture them and understand what they need in various scenarios. For example, you can use Segmentify’s Personalised Push Notifications service to incentivize an individual’s online purchasing process by sending instant notifications created in line with his previous activity. With the help of the most intelligent machine learning strategy, Segmentify offers the right notifications at the right time for a specific customer. A notification that is accurately relating one’s specific interests can play a huge role in growth for the eCommerce business and increasing the overall conversion rates. 

Let’s take a different angle here; another solution Segmentify offers is the Personalised Product Recommendation, which gives each of your consumers what they need to widen their shopping carts. No one gets interested in random products offered along with their purchase journey on an eCommerce website. To be able to increase the average revenue coming from each basket, your business should be able to find additional products that your customers will be interested in, which are the ones that are personalised for their specific needs and want. Segmentify does this job by using the most intelligent machine-learning technology. It comprehensively analyses the visitor’s activity and helps you recommend products that your customers will certainly be interested in.

After fracturing your whole market share into individual personas and creating personalised approaches for their specific needs and wants, there will be no obstacle to achieving “holistic growth”. At Segmentify, we are aware of each individual’s contribution to growth, and we know that personalisation will be the next big thing in eCommerce for reaching success. If you still have not benefited from Segmentify’s various personalisation tools to create your business-centric growth strategy on your business, please contact our team and join us during this journey. Let’s achieve “holistic growth” together!

Podcast Transcript

Phill Kay: Well, hello everybody. And welcome to another episode of the eCommerce Growth Show in the UK. My name’s Phill Kay, you’ll know me from Segmentify. I talked to a great guy today called Chris Nawrocki. Now, Chris is a bit of a veteran bit of an eCommerce veteran, being in pure play for a long, long time over 12 years, actually on the client’s side. And then he went on to found his own agency called “Heur” as in short for heuristics and he’s been running that for the last three years. So, he specialises in something that he calls “Holistic” eCommerce, which we’ll dig into that a bit more. But let me welcome Chris first, Chris, how are you doing?

Chris Nawrocki: I’m very well. I’m very well. How are you? 

Phill Kay: Yeah, I’m great. Thank you. It’s been lovely to get to know you over the last few weeks. How’s life, how’s the weather right where you are at the moment in London? 

Chris Nawrocki: I mean, I’ll start with life. Life’s good. You know, I think, everyone’s gone through the cycles of life. 

Phill Kay: Yeah. 

Chris Nawrocki: You know, there’s several ups and downs throughout it. And then now it’s very much looking at what the rest of this year holds and the, you know, even more. So, what Q1, Q2 next year looks like, but I cannot complain. The weather is phenomenal looking outside and then when it’s not raining, which is good.

Phill Kay: That’s a bonus for all countries. 

Chris Nawrocki: Exactly. 

Phill Kay: And so why don’t we start with an ice breaker. So, you are investing in starting your own D2C business, is that right? 

Chris Nawrocki: It is. Yeah. So, it’s something that we might myself and my business partner, who’s also called Chris. So, you know, it’s not nice and confusing, but equally, if you follow Chris in our direction, one of us will answer. So, we have sort of three or four D2C businesses, but working on which I own. Which we’re looking to deploy soft Q4 this year to a variety of predominantly heavy retail businesses, which are all D2C leveraging a lot of the knowledge and the strategies that we deploy for other sort of SMEs.

Phill Kay: Yeah. 

Chris Nawrocki: And you know, it’s a lot of its proof of concepts, proving that what we say will happen and does happen and do it for ourselves. And also, you know, it’s good to constantly learn. I’m always working super hands-on in the paid social programmatic.

Phill Kay: Yeah.

Chris Nawrocki: You know, SEO trading on and so forth, but to do it for myself to see that firsthand. 

Phill Kay: Absolutely. Can you give us a snippet of what some of the things you’re doing or testing are, or is it a bit under the wraps at the moment?

Chris Nawrocki: It’s a little bit under the wraps at the moment, but as soon as soon, I mean, you’ll, you’ll know once it’s there, hopefully. But again, you know, it’s, we’re, we’re launching businesses that aren’t trying to take over their categories, you know, just try to be sort of 1% of that category to share small, be Sharon, get, get some good learnings from it. 

Phill Kay: Definitely. Sorry, carry on. 

Chris Nawrocki: I mean, invested in some D2Cs as well, who are, you know, entry level, who need that next, the next sort of boost. So, we give sweat equity as well as actual cash equity, which allows them to do marketing. Then we activate the marketing as well as be part of the centralised director’s team. 

Phill Kay: Yeah. That sounds really exciting. Yeah, that’s fantastic. I mean, how do you go about strategizing around this kind of thing? I mean, it makes sense to me that if you’re, if you see an established market, and then you work away to take a small part of a big market. Is that, is that basically what the thinking is? 

Chris Nawrocki: Yeah. So, we work on the premise that is very similar to a lot of the strategy that Amazon sellers have. So, they look at the market, they look at the size of the market. The actual ability to get cut through into that market, then what percentage of the market would make it worthwhile for them? So, it’s a lot of, looking at Savio, Pareto, principle of understanding, you know, what effort you’re putting into what you’re getting out. So, it’s similar for us. So, we look at categories like that. And it’s not necessarily about, you know, the way to own that category, but trying to play a part in it. You know, it’s also about looking at the digital, like you of the market. And where we can actually deploy super hided like you and get cut-through.

Phill Kay: Yeah. Really interesting, really interesting. So, let’s talk about the main topic today. We mentioned at the beginning, this, this idea of holistic eCommerce growth. So, tell us more about what that actually means and how your consultancies are positioned around that.

Chris Nawrocki: Yeah. So, I think traditional consultancies and agencies tend to sell in direct product sets that they have. So, you know, you’re either a PPC agency or as a paid social agency or an SEO agency, and the bits of overlap in between them and, you know, some, some cross borders. And I think, you know, what, where positioning ourselves is actually being able to say, okay, well, it’s not just going to be PPC that drives you forward. It’s not just going to be paid social. There isn’t necessarily a silver bullet that will serve all brands at all times. So, the standpoint we work from is essentially a super business centric eCommerce strategy where we actually define what you want to achieve and how you’re going to achieve it.

So, for example, you know, this business approach and said, okay, we want to hit this gross revenue. Okay, great. And then drilling down as you drill into it. It’s actually, well, we need this subscriber base. Because they’re their subscription case subscription business that needs to grow its subscription base and their actual target is subscribers. So that’s working backwards from that subscriber base or equally, you know, joining the business when we get asked to do paid social. And what we actually ended up doing in three, three or four months is actually building out a P and L a cash flow. And a buying strategy, which enables them to get the bottom-line growth that they’re looking for.

So, you know, there isn’t a linear solution of turning on each channel to get this maximized growth. It’s about being able to advise business strength, centric strategies that involve eCommerce marketing and operations. 

Phill Kay: Yeah. That makes sense. So, I mean, obviously you’re talking about growth there, how does it look these days in this kind of world that you’re operating in? Is it growth no matter what, you know, is it growth with profit? Is it none of the above? How do you see at the moment in terms of increasing difficulty of kind of breaking into markets, the increased competition, CPAs and so on. How do you do that? Can you do both, can you grow profit and growth at the same time? 

Chris Nawrocki: I mean, first of all, it’s a great question. I think, you know, CPAs have been coming more and more constrained as we go forward. The way that, the way that I looked at and tried to explain it, say, you know, if you look back 10 years ago, PPC was the aspirational channel to get into that. If you look back seven years ago, paid social was an aspiration chance again. So now all those channels, that is 1 0 1 is part of your playbook. It’s just what we do. You know, small brands, happy BC, small brands, happy socially. It’s no longer this thing that they’re reaching for. It’s something that everyone does. So, the silver bullets, no, no. Along with that, there were many brands that turned into multi-million pound brands off the back of paid social when it first came to market. But now the market is such raters and it’s very hard to get the same sort of CPA that you used to. 

Phill Kay: Yeah. 

Chris Nawrocki: And I think, you know, that’s all great, possibly a hundred percent. I think it’s just category specific product specific, really doing your homework behind what you’re selling before you start selling it. So. Yeah, the way they look at it, you can do, you can do a top, top down or bottom-up view on it. So, bottom up is we have this product. We want to try and sell it to the market. We’ll find out what the market is or find out what the market is and build a product to fit into that market. And I think that’s where a lot of businesses can go wrong because it’s so easy to get a product to market. They don’t think about what the rest of that narrative looks like. And you know, this is where holistic eCommerce really kind of comes into play because it’s the way that I look at it is, you know, there’s a, there’s a table full of cups. Each cup is a channel. As you pour water into each channel, each one will overflow at different points. And it’s knowing when the overflow happens and moving to the next move to the next.

You know, you’re not just going to build a business on paid social, not just going to build a business from people who say, you know, you need to be able to understand and validate what other channels do and how you actually move up that funnel to, you know, when, when things start overflowing.

It is more challenging that the digital IQ of the market in general has increased dramatically. I mean, particularly in the UK where we are, you know, four or five years ahead of the rest of the world arguably. So, a lot of what we’re doing is setting benchmarks for the rest of the world.

Phill Kay: Yeah. You said it’s got harder. How do you know, obviously not your world? How do you know when things are overflowing, moving from one channel to the next? How do you do that?

Chris Nawrocki: So, a lot of that comes down to setting your targets. You’re quick, you’re qualified as a success, which is arguably the first thing that you do before any project is looking at us. In six months, time in three months, time in a month’s time. What one thing are we going to look at and say we were successful because this thing happens. And I’ll give it, you know, if you’re talking about profitability, perhaps that is one of the flags that you have, you know, maybe it’s an impression shared. Maybe if you set your qualifications as CPA, then it’s looking at your shallow mix and how that CPA blended across all channels hits your goal to the most profitable kind of level. So, you know, obviously if you had say you had 10,000 pounds and then a month put that on social media, you can spend with Ben as Ben, then you hit that bell curve of performance where you fall off the other side.

Phill Kay: Right.

Chris Nawrocki: Want everybody to know that there’s an understanding of market competition, seasonality, offer, products and all these things make it sort of a rich tapestry per channel. So arguably, you know, if you’re operating PPC, and there’s no one else in your space doing it, then you run away with it, but if there’s no one else in that space, there’s probably going to be less search. If there’s less search, there’s less head room for you to grow into. If there was more search volume, then there’s more headroom, but there’s going to be more competition. So, it’s understanding the bottlenecks and preempting them. And that’s essentially, you know, building up a multi-channel marketing forecast allows you to do is going in with these assumptions saying, well, actually, you know, paid social is only going to be 4% of our online business and that’s okay. Because we’ve planned other areas to grow into, so, okay. Well, organic, that’s going to grow with our outreach, fantastic and organic that doesn’t cost us anything, pay social costs us, you know, you might break even, but that’s okay because blended is a very healthy channel mix. And I think that’s where this sort of top holistic methodology comes into play is understanding the push and pull and the positive tension between each channel.

Phill Kay: Yeah, no, totally. Is it when you say holistic and in your sense, you know, with Heur is it all about acquisition or are there any other areas that you concentrate on as well? 

Chris Nawrocki: So, no, in short, it’s not, I think acquisition has been very much the science times, every, you know, everything everyone’s pushing up the post pandemic, everyone’s pushing to programmatic because during the pandemic, the online presence of consumers doubled tripled quadrupled in some cases. And with that open up the market and with that you know, enabled more programmatic, you know, there is going to be a legacy of that where the market’s still a, still a bit swollen, but it has slowly declined to a run rate. So, acquisition is a sign of the times. Without retention, there is no acquisition. Acquisitions, your short-term play, your long-term plays, your retention strategy. And again, there’s this, this goes back to setting those targets and KPIs. I don’t know if you’re familiar with sort of a Silicon Valley methodology, which is the Silicon Valley of death, which is effectively spending into a massive deficit of acquisition, knowing that you’ll soon have that uptick of retained clients. So, you can always say we can get into a massive hole because we know that they’re going to return in two weeks, three weeks, four weeks, then our points of inflection on your break, even point. It’s going to be in three months. And at that point you’ve got to start swelling. And that’s essentially what this sort of the methodology is, is cash to market to grow, to then retain to kickstarter.

Phill Kay: Yeah, sure.  I mean, it’s probably a silly question, but I mean, obviously there’s a risk associated with that, right. As well. I mean, does it always go like that or, you know, does it backfire, and it doesn’t happen in humans? 

Chris Nawrocki: I mean, first of all, they’re not silly questions. You know, it’s about assessing risk in my mind. It’s not a risk if you’ve assessed it, because if it is still too much of a rescue, you won’t do it. So, you know, it’s understanding that there are variables and you’ve got to give your best guess on what that is. You’ve got, you’ve got to model these things out and really understand what it could look like.

Phill Kay: Yeah.

Chris Nawrocki: And then you’ve got to put your best guess at it and run with it. You know, there are market conditions, which you can’t account for, COVID. Massive, massive, massive, massive change in market, massive downturn, massive uptake, massive downturn. Then going back to work, you know, really even going back to work, you know, in a traditional sense.

Phill Kay: Yeah, no, no, totally. It’s all very interesting to see where this is all going. I mean, if you were to boil growth down to like one important, most important thing, if you like, what would you, what would you say that was? 

Chris Nawrocki: Ooh, one thing. 

Phill Kay: Most important thing that you have to consider.

Chris Nawrocki: Yeah. I think it’s essentially what we’ve just covered there. It’s understanding what the full customer life cycle looks like. You know, if you are, if you are acquiring what happens then? Whereas the handoff points and then what goes on from there. So effectively, if you know, you’re going to acquire. If you’re not first purchasing positive in terms of revenue, then you have to know what kind of sequentially happens. I know there are some categories where you won’t be first-purchase positive, and you’ve got to understand that there’s going to be sequentials. So, I think understanding customer and market is, you know, is paramount with that, with any new business, going to market understanding where they as well, what their spending habits are, what their bottlenecks are, what, you know, what, you know, if you build the best product in the world and take it to market. But if it’s twice the price of your nearest competitor, they’re not going to look at how great it is. They’re going to look at your competitor and say, well, actually that’s just cheaper. You know, there’s less friction there for them. So they’ll go there. You’ll get some Cashman, but it won’t be, you won’t be able to scale at the same rate.

Phill Kay: No, totally. No. It makes sense. You know, I’m going back to the, kind of the routes to market elements that you’re talking about Is it possible to kind of, you know, grow like this where your effectively distributing as opposed to kind of manufacturing, like, so from onsite, I’m thinking about margins and profit and stuff and talking about growth and profit. Is there a mark difference and is it, is it almost foolish these days to just be distributing? And do you have to go down the manufacturer route to try and protect your profits and growth and stuff? What does that all look like these days? 

Chris Nawrocki: Yeah, that almost feels like a perfect segue into, you know, what, what, what primer the primer conundrum of should they sell online? Should they not sell online? And I think, you know, it’s, again, you’ll hear me say a lot, but it’s positive tension and it has to be a positive tension between the two. So, at the start of the pandemic, we helped a lot of enterprise B2Bs move to D2C. And half of that was because, you know, there’s an opportunity here that we can sell into that market, great. So opportunistically there is that move from B2B to D2C. There’s also a large transitional shift where larger high street manufacturers, such as, you know perhaps Halfords or B&Q. They used to, they used to buy a lot of stock. But during the pandemic, because they were closed, they actually pulled manufacturing in house.

So, a lot of those B2Bs weren’t getting the same sales to them. So, then they have to move to D2C and start growing that. And I think a lot of this comes back to his, his, his future proofing. How do you future proof yourself, future proof your cash flow and understand consumer habits? Consumers are looking for a lot more.

They are, you know, it’s not just Google purchases. It’s look on the mobile, look on the iPad, look on the desktop, come back in a way to look again. And within that, where do you sit in that mix? They won’t necessarily have brand loyalty to health, or whatever. And the opportunities within your broad channel mix is to get those touch points in and pull them into D2C. So, you know that there’s much more value in owning your customer, and I think that’s possible the real, the real, the real thing here is being able to own that customer and create that long journey and build those brand narratives with them, directly. As opposed to through a third PI. 

Phill Kay: Yeah. Sure, sure. Question on that then. I mean, I’ll asked this a few times before, what’s your opinion on it? So, when a brand goes D2C that’s historically been you know, B2B effectively where.  The idea of having a massive distribution network, but also going direct. And, you know, I went, I mean, it was like a long time ago, right? When they, when they started doing it, and you could tell there was this massive kind of uprising of all the resellers and stuff going, like what’s going on, they’re going direct. How does that look these days in terms of anything around you know, dilution of market available to the distributors versus the D2C and stuff? Is there any, like, have you got any views or any info on that?

Chris Nawrocki: So again, you know, this takes me back to being soft client sites and businesses that were sort of 90, 95% wholesale. The argument would always be eCommerce can’t grow because you’re going to take wholesales market share and you’re going to; you’re going to stop. However, customers buy from our retailers that we sell to. And that’s just gonna make more tension between us that Delta is dropping and so on and so forth. And when in reality that doesn’t necessarily happen, consumers shop differently. The person that buys in a small, independent menswear shop isn’t going to be the same guy. That’s going to be Googling, trying to find their best offer online. And you know, this is a very similar question. So, you know, when do you use affiliates and again, if affiliates for you is a discounted channel, that’s fine. It’s a different segmented audience. There’ll be a small overlap, but not great. So, I think that the real challenge is, you know, it’s not a one size fits all. It doesn’t have to be that it isn’t true for every, every sort of vertical, every single sort of business. Arguably as a broad brush, I’d say the market is big enough to have those overlaps and not to write it off. You know, it’s the same reason for wanting to grow your B2B as well as your D2C. It’s understanding they’re all going to overlap, but it’s positive and it’s there, there are the verticals there. So, for example, you know, if you’re selling bedding, the person is going to look for you through Google with super high intent. They’re just gonna, they want bedding because they need it. But equally B2B, you could stop bedding to hotels. And then never going to be the same customer and there’s never going to be that overlap. So, it’s a hundred percent about understanding your market share. And I think the only times you really come, and stock is if you’re super wholesale, heavy, or super eCommerce heavy, and you’re not willing to take that positive tension and push those sales around the business. There are opportunities across the board. It’s just understanding that there are limits to reach. You go full wholesale, that will swell the market and more, you know, more likely than that, it will negatively impact your wholesale accounts. If you have multiple wholesalers who are all into, you know, if you’re wholesale to multiple enterprise businesses, they’re going to be fighting against each other as well as fighting against you.

So, it’s understanding what will happen when that happens. 

Phill Kay: Yes. Yeah, but it sounds to me like, I mean, it’s been happening for a long time now and it’s kind of increasing, so it clearly can sit together and work.

Chris Nawrocki: Yeah. I think that there’s going to be a large resurgence of B2B. I think wholesale’s going up, it’s going to boom, over Q3, Q4 this year. It’ll be interesting to see what the events look like next year. But then, you know, everyone’s planning for that boom. 

Phill Kay: Yeah, totally. I was surprised actually, you know, that was quite a big rebound, in April. But actually, maze print has come down already. I was really surprised. It would only take almost a month. I wonder if it will, you know, resurge again at some point or what?

Chris Nawrocki: I think, you know, that there’s, there’s a lot of associates, socioeconomics at play here where, you know, I think it’s just the uncertainty in the market, uncertainty in cash flow, uncertainty in work and uncertainty in COVID. All these things play a part in a consumer psyche. And actually, you know, it’s not as, not simply as I can, when we get back to the shops when I go out. But equally, you know, it’s too early to comment on that. Walking on shopping habits is like I am speaking personally through all of the lockdowns, I’ve not bought any clothing. I’ve just, just, just kept what I had. And even now I don’t feel the need to buy anything. 

Phill Kay: No, I haven’t either actually just, you know, because I haven’t been out as much at all. I’ve been buying things like chlorine tablets and dumb furniture. Like everybody else probably. 

Chris Nawrocki: Well, well this is it. You know that there’s going to be a small transitional shift in sort of mental wellbeing being at home and your home space. And you know, I mean, even when I’m going out again, no, I don’t feel the need to buy more of anything that I need to go out. You know, it’s very much about what, what things do I need to actually exist then? But, you know, that’s, that’s where my head is and that’s probably where it’s going to be. And that’s a massive change for me. Post pandemic. 

Phill Kay: Yeah. No, totally. So, I expect you’d be wearing the same clothes you’re wearing. One thing I did want to ask you, because you mentioned silver bullets earlier? In the sense that, there aren’t any like, you know, from the old, the old cohort of things that you know were very, very successful when they first began. Have you detected any new silver bullets or any forecasted silver bullets on the horizon at all, or is that strictly under the radar of the Heur consultancy?

Chris Nawrocki: So, I think you know, that there are, there are some plays that we do deploy, which are short-term wins, long-term wins. But in terms of the channels, you know, I think everyone has been watching TikTok. The difficulty is understanding what the audience says. As with most things, the early adopters are going to be the brands that have a lot of cash kicking around, allowing them to put time and effort into it, to grow an audience for tomorrow. Yeah. And that, you know, that’s always the challenge. I think the real thing here is understanding the slow decline of Facebook within, you know, within the UK, Facebook’s declining, Instagram’s still increasing. But then, the way that media is digested in the US is completely different and it’s still very much a call channel. So, you know, there are no silver bullets, it’s all geographically kind of has to be appropriate in that sense. But I think, you know, as I’m sure many people did, I downloaded TikTok. I fall into the trap of just digesting media through TikTok, all nonsensical show media, which doesn’t, you know, doesn’t give me a lasting …

Phill Kay: Sustainment. Is it? 

Chris Nawrocki: It is, you know, I suppose it’s very , I feel that Americana is just constantly blasting you with lots and lots of media, lots of different things, and lots of subversive things, which, you know, it’s, it’s such an unknown quantity. I think the big thing is, if you are successful, you can hit a lot of people and become viral. You know, there’s been some musicians who have been very successful off the back of it, where they’ve had dare. I say, TikTok dancers that have made them go viral, which were global. That made them, you know, a lot of money very quickly. And that was the only strategy we should deploy. And I think, again, that’s the thing about having, you know, centers? No, silver bullets are very much about understanding the market and what you can do as a brand. 

Phill Kay: Yeah.

Chris Nawrocki: Tik TOK isn’t going to be for everybody.

Phill Kay: No, no, no. Can you I, cause I don’t know TikTok, really. I mean, obviously I’ve heard what you’re talking about. Other people said, but can a brand use TikTok? Like they can use Facebook or Instagram at the moment already. 

Chris Nawrocki: I think they can, they can probably use it too. It is different. So, if you, if you’re looking for a high impression share, high awareness. It talks to a fantastic audience. It’s all to you. The customer base, you know, it’s super, superlow in tense, is people just scrolling through it. You know, you’re playing for that impression, share and eyes on. It’s not going to be a direct conversion tool. That’s why a lot of people won’t use it because they’re lacking at direct conversions, and I think that’s where the Facebook and Instagram ecosystem is changing where it’s less, less about direct conversions and more about a broader play. Again, I think it’s just understanding where it fits and if it does fit and what economy of scale for you as a business?

Phill Kay: Yeah. I mean, I don’t know how much things have changed, you know, in terms of how many people in the UK offset or globally, even certain demographics, you know Spending a lot of time still scrolling through feeds of Facebook or Instagram or whatever. And then obviously, you know, the younger generations are, you know, scrolling through TikTok. You know, I don’t know what those trends look like when they, how that, yeah.

Chris Nawrocki: Yeah. So, I mean, on that point I was a teacher, and I always try to get a low down from her on what, what will the kids at our school are using. Facebook? Facebook’s the thing that you’re, that your grandad uses. 

Phill Kay: Yeah. Right. 

Chris Nawrocki: Yeah. And you know that that’s addictive, you know, that the parts of Facebook that are growing are closed channels, which can be a closed group. And, you know, like me, I’ve not posted on my wall on Facebook for years. And I, I don’t plan to, but what I do use on there is, there’s like good community groups. I think that’s what we can leverage them, what they can grow. And when you you’ll probably see that big shift that I think, you know, that’s, if you can build the community within Facebook, you know, you’ve got a community that you can send media product to for free without having to actually market to them, so that you know, that that’s a big opportunity there. But yeah, I think it’s just, it’s attention spans to the media. It’s not it’s, you know, it’s shorter and shorter and it will keep growing that way. 

Phill Kay: Yeah. And totally. Is your dog alright by the way?

Chris Nawrocki: Oh yeah, he’s at the party outside or they have to get here. 

Phill Kay: We’ll finish up. Because he’s quite young.

Chris Nawrocki: Yeah. Yeah, no, he’s 15 weeks old, it’s still a bit of a troublemaker.

Phill Kay: We won’t, we won’t let him get too upset. Listen, I mean, it’s been great to talk about all this stuff, holistic growth and so on. If anybody is interested to have a chat with you about what you’re doing, you know, I’m talking to Heur and so on. What’s the best way for the guys to get hold of you?

Chris Nawrocki: I mean through our website, so or even LinkedIn, you know, if you are, I’ll be on LinkedIn send me a message. Very happy to chat.

Phill Kay: Just so, your surname, just spell your surname so that guys can pick you up easy on LinkedIn. 

Chris Nawrocki: Yes. That’s N-A-W-R-O-C-K-I. Nice and easy.

Phill Kay: So, and then final, final thing is I will have to ask my guests this, put them on spot a bit just pull something out of the, you know, the experience of, of Chris McCroskey for the guys to take away a bit of a golden nugget from your wisdom.

Chris Nawrocki: So again, unfortunately probably I’d covered this topic in here, but I think it’s setting goals and understanding what it is that you’re trying to do, but really understanding what it is and drill, drill back. So, it’s not just about, we want to make more money. That’s not a goal that, that that’s, you know, that’s a byproduct of your goal. What is your goal? Is it to acquire more people to acquire more subscribers, to grow your bottom line, to make you more profitable, to hire more staff, or really understand what it is you’re trying to do and why you’re doing it once you have that you’ll know which direction to run in?

Phill Kay: Absolutely. And I mean, the message for me, it’s very complex. You can tell that there’s a lot to it. And some of the stuff we’re talking about shows that there is so much to think about not only about before, but whilst. And during the future of what we’re trying to do as well. But as I say, thanks so much for the chat. It’s been great to chat. And guys just remain for me to say that if you’re interested in getting involved in the show or you haven’t signed up yet for any of the existing or future episodes of the show, just head over to, if you want to get in touch. You know, as to research any particular topics, we’ll get involved on that, But yeah, thank you so much again, Chris, for your time. 

Chris Nawrocki: Absolute pleasure, absolute pleasure. 

Phill Kay: No worries. I’ll let you go and get your dog and thank you so much. We’ll speak to you again very soon.

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